I'm quoting the following from who I think is an elder Lakota (?) traditional by the name of John Trudell. This comes from a book called Stickman by Paola Igliori, an interview from February 12, 1994:
Where I think the difference really comes out is that...it's about the money and I think that a lot of the opposition to it is because see the ceremonies have a meaning and the idea that people go out and sell them, then the meaning has become altered to the person who is selling it--we are talking about perceptions now--so, the individual that is selling the ceremony it's more than likely that this individual's perception will be affected by the ability to sell the ceremony, because a whole new factor enters into play here now, it's how this individual's perception is affected by the money...because when you get this type of power and you're going to utilize this kind of power...then everything has got to be clean...right... I'm not just talking about you go out and do this once and you get a little expense money to get you by... but when people make it a way of making their living by selling the ceremonies, then there is a certain dependency that has to evolve... to the money... and the integrity of the ceremony is no longer the same as if the ceremony was being held because of the *need* for the ceremony. Because tyhe person that runs the ceremony, this is the person you trust to call this power and make this external communication, so everybody places their minds with this person, but let's say this person --his intentions are good, but his motives may not be in synch with the intentions, because the money has influenced the need for the ceremony...right?... fine lines here.
Anytime you have a ceremony and you call to that power, the power you are calling to will hear you...but if you don't understand what you are doing, you are not going to understand the answer, and your problem is not even gonna be close to being solved...so that means you got to go buy another ceremony...so this is the danger area.
See now, me personally, I understand the whole idea about this knowledge being put there so that people have an opportunity, right, to examine it, at least have an opportunity to have the information. I can understand that reasoning and I'm not against it, right...but I can't say what is right or wrong about this issue on the ceremonies...see what I know is...I think Sitting Bull said to the Americans..."Your people know how to fight about God, we don't know that way and we don't want to learn it."... all right...? See to me this kind of falls in that category, I don't wanna fight about what's the right way...who's spiritually correct, who's spiritually incorrect...all I really know about it is: if you mess with power, then you got to understand what you're doing... because... it's only you in the end that's gonna have to deal with it...and that's my understanding about it.
So if people selling the ceremonies...but the rationalization is spreading the word...but the reality is they are selling the ceremony--and those are two separate realities to me---if what they are doing is not right so to speak...then that's something they will answer to...they are communicating with this power...nobody else will answer to that but them...and if what they're doing it's supposed to be the way it is...then...they don't have to worry about answering, right!
On the other hand--the people that would attack to protect spirituality...I don't have a real understanding about that either, because if everybody becomes aggressive...For me it's an individual thing... I wouldn't sell ceremonies... I would not go out and run a ceremony for money...but then see I'm not a ceremony person...so I can't really judge that it's right or wrong...because I know people who do sell ceremonies, do them for money, and I like [some of] them... [and] there are those that do this that I like and I respect them. I don't agree with it, but the deal is, I can't say to them...I think what you're doing is wrong...I can't say that, because I don't *know* that it is.
[But]...It's a recyclable factionalism that serves a purpose anyway to those who would colonize us [that isn't going to go away].
Where I think the difference really comes out is that...it's about the money and I think that a lot of the opposition to it is because see the ceremonies have a meaning and the idea that people go out and sell them, then the meaning has become altered to the person who is selling it--we are talking about perceptions now--so, the individual that is selling the ceremony it's more than likely that this individual's perception will be affected by the ability to sell the ceremony, because a whole new factor enters into play here now, it's how this individual's perception is affected by the money...because when you get this type of power and you're going to utilize this kind of power...then everything has got to be clean...right... I'm not just talking about you go out and do this once and you get a little expense money to get you by... but when people make it a way of making their living by selling the ceremonies, then there is a certain dependency that has to evolve... to the money... and the integrity of the ceremony is no longer the same as if the ceremony was being held because of the *need* for the ceremony. Because tyhe person that runs the ceremony, this is the person you trust to call this power and make this external communication, so everybody places their minds with this person, but let's say this person --his intentions are good, but his motives may not be in synch with the intentions, because the money has influenced the need for the ceremony...right?... fine lines here.
Anytime you have a ceremony and you call to that power, the power you are calling to will hear you...but if you don't understand what you are doing, you are not going to understand the answer, and your problem is not even gonna be close to being solved...so that means you got to go buy another ceremony...so this is the danger area.
See now, me personally, I understand the whole idea about this knowledge being put there so that people have an opportunity, right, to examine it, at least have an opportunity to have the information. I can understand that reasoning and I'm not against it, right...but I can't say what is right or wrong about this issue on the ceremonies...see what I know is...I think Sitting Bull said to the Americans..."Your people know how to fight about God, we don't know that way and we don't want to learn it."... all right...? See to me this kind of falls in that category, I don't wanna fight about what's the right way...who's spiritually correct, who's spiritually incorrect...all I really know about it is: if you mess with power, then you got to understand what you're doing... because... it's only you in the end that's gonna have to deal with it...and that's my understanding about it.
So if people selling the ceremonies...but the rationalization is spreading the word...but the reality is they are selling the ceremony--and those are two separate realities to me---if what they are doing is not right so to speak...then that's something they will answer to...they are communicating with this power...nobody else will answer to that but them...and if what they're doing it's supposed to be the way it is...then...they don't have to worry about answering, right!
On the other hand--the people that would attack to protect spirituality...I don't have a real understanding about that either, because if everybody becomes aggressive...For me it's an individual thing... I wouldn't sell ceremonies... I would not go out and run a ceremony for money...but then see I'm not a ceremony person...so I can't really judge that it's right or wrong...because I know people who do sell ceremonies, do them for money, and I like [some of] them... [and] there are those that do this that I like and I respect them. I don't agree with it, but the deal is, I can't say to them...I think what you're doing is wrong...I can't say that, because I don't *know* that it is.
[But]...It's a recyclable factionalism that serves a purpose anyway to those who would colonize us [that isn't going to go away].
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I'm curious... 'Tis to laugh.
Wed, March 1, 2006 - 1:54 PMCeremony and ritual is every movement, breath, and step one takes. The separation of Ceremony and ritual from life is the illusion. A spiritual way of life not only suggests this but advocates it, no matter what the tradition.
Aggression meaning: judging individuals as SELLOUTS? hmmn? I'm curious now!
The tone of this post is radically different from the one before it, from attacker to victim - passive aggressive. Someone posted an opportunity and two individuals were quick to attack: " Sellouts...Aim after asses...NEVER for money..." yet when responded to...Well its just an interesting thing isn't it.
I mean what do you think? Not AIM not Elders and Priests and Presidents and political officials, these people are thinking individuals & granted that the question of integrity in comparison may be miles apart, but that is an assumption on my part (only because I dont know these people personally, and I dont believe everything i read or see on TV) -isn't choice and freedom one of the goals? There seems to be a lot of QUOTING going on! (LOL)
Information is everywhere, some will pay for it some will not.
Some are charging some are not.
I mean: what do I care if I find something that works for me that I pay for-and the one who's selling (is out of integrity or whatever) not in for anything other than the money. Thats their choice-WHO AM I to judge them- Cause and effect deals with them in kind as it does all of us. If I dont like it I leave try and find something for free-If it works I stay and I pay...
WHAT WORKS????
Thats the key. We all pay to play in one way or another-Don Juan states this often in many different ways. give and take-its one of the natures of the universe, cause and effect.
If individuals are willing to pay for a thing it is their choice
does it work? they keep on
if it does not...move on.
Blessed be!
The holy order of the Jaguar.
as above so below
Spider weaves
as on my shoulder stands Crow. -
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Re: I'm curious... 'Tis to laugh.
Wed, March 1, 2006 - 9:06 PMSometimes one has good ideas they wish to share. There are those who recognize the value in this and pay attention. Others want to know what the idea is worth and ask how much does it cost. For them there must be a price tag in order to appreciate the value in an idea. If freely given it would perish trying to compete with the ideas they have purchased. Great Rituals abound to be discovered and created. In the market of the wilderness we pay respect. There are those who have forgotten this economy. -
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Thankyou Jody!
Mon, March 20, 2006 - 7:03 PMExcellent truths! All the forgetting we do, not seeing the value.
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Indigo....
Mon, March 20, 2006 - 7:22 PM}} WHAT WORKS????
Thats the key. We all pay to play in one way or another-Don Juan states this often in many different ways. give and take-its one of the natures of the universe, cause and effect.
If individuals are willing to pay for a thing it is their choice
does it work? they keep on
if it does not...move on.
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I say what "works" in the context of the enforced corrall of ideas which we are taught to think nothing of completely encompassing/surrounding us. That argument is like the argument for war. War also "works". The question is, now deeply? How deep is the meaning in something that appears to work on the surface (nice people all thanking you profusely and bidding you to "take care" and that's it; and 'keep me on your mailing list' and 'until next year' and 'so purifying'.) Yet the mentality of the colonized human being is not deeply or truly challenged.
Not like a true vision quest where no emergency backups are there to make sure no one is sued. Not like the scalding sweat that native prisoners or other traditional depth-questers experience. Colonized folks as a kind of "child" who are given a superficial experience (compared to the native prisoners, say in the film "Fire in the Hole"), and move on to seek something "more."
Within the frame of mind of money and all that comes with playing in this way, this game, "more" is sequestered due to "the limits of the system" and no true solidarity with human beings. It's like the therapy game. The institutional framework exists as more important so you don't "get sued" by someone who has not been able to escape that mentality. Someone who remains alienated-enough to fall back on the methods they have been conditioned to utilize *against* others who are no longer their true relations, but have become separated.
i think it makes sense to do a self-searching on these issues in order to avoid the pit-falls and mistakes that any watered-down interaction perpetuates.
Of course the biggest problem, if i haven't said it already, is the *internalized value* thing. We have been programmed/conditioned to not think things through; we don't even generally have the ability to *step outside* the paradigm that is so deeply around us that we believe it is *all that is*. And then scoff at the "alleged" magick of ancient ways. As if a summer of your programs could fill in for thousands of years of ancient traditional ways.
Or something along those lines, anyway. i don't think i can adequately articulate with the english language...
i guess the thing that brought this kinda thang home for me most was during a native-led sweat i did where the native guy was drinking a pepsi beforehand and i just was judging his ass all over the place once i saw that. So in the sweat i let away my social armors (as i usually do anyway) and whooped and coyote-called to my heart's content. Well, that pepsi-drinkin' native let out a WHOOP that totally knocked me off my "pedestal" of sorts. That WHOOP was coming from a place much much much deeper in HEART, even if gotten from experiences of differing depths than mine.
Anyway, for now, i'll just end with the following quote i found recently:
"Unless we are very very careful, we doom each other by holding onto images of one another based on preconceptions that are in turn based on indifference to what is other than ourselves. This indifference can be in its extreme, a form of murder and seems to me a rather common phenomenon. We claim autonomy for ourselves and forget that in so doing we can fall into the tyranny of defining other people as we would like them to be. By focusing on what we choose to acknowledge in them, we impose an insidious control on them... The opposite of this inattention is love, is the honoring of others in a way that allows mutual discovery." --Anne Truitt
Comments welcome!
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Unsu...
Re: more thinking on the selling of ceremonies
Thu, March 2, 2006 - 7:42 AMSome info on John Trudell for you:
Born of mixed tribal blood, John Trudell grew up in and around the Santee Sioux reservation near his hometown of Omaha, Nebraska
In 1969, Trudell participated in the occupation of Alcatraz Island by Indians of All Tribes, becoming a spokesman for Indians of All Tribes. After the Indians of All Tribes occupation ended in 1971, Trudell worked with the American Indian Movement, becoming national Chairman of AIM in 1973.
In April of 1979, Trudell met Jackson Browne. This meeting led Trudell into the world of music. In 1982, with Jackson Browne's help, John Trudell recorded Tribal Voice, a fusion of poetry and traditional Native music, which was released on cassette. In 1985, Trudell met legendary Kiowa guitarist and songwriter Jesse Ed Davis. Together, they recorded Trudell's debut album AKA Grafitti Man, with Trudell writing and performing the spoken word vocals and Jesse writing and performing the music. Released on cassette in 1986, it was dubbed "the best album" of that year by none other than Bob Dylan. AKA Grafitti Man served early notice of Trudell's singular ability to express fundamental truths through a unique mix of poetry, Native instrumentation and unfettered blues and rock.
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Re: more thinking on the selling of ceremonies
Thu, March 2, 2006 - 1:47 PMThe Economy of respect is a "given"
As was stated before:
" 'I would never insult a teacher by not offering a give and take relationship, and furthermore I dont think/feel/believe a teacher would insult him/herself by not requiring it - Mine didn't. '"
Respect is inherent in a symbiotic relationship of any sort. The argument seems to be stemmed in the concept that '"money is the root of all evil'" that to recieve money for something is a bad thing based on a evaluation made about what is being bought.
Respect and love for the SELF is important is it not? whether we pay with green paper, leaves, clamshells or barter and trade, we do it for ourselves first - no matter what anyone says or thinks right?
Thanks H-street for the information you shared! : John Trudell respected himself enough to take the path he did-lets se how we judge that?
It seems to me that there are folks who are willing to work for what they have-and those who believe it is 'owed' to them. Money like everything else is energy, what are the judgements and evaluations and meanings we give it? its these things that taint the interchange, fear and power turn green paper into the 'EVIL' incarnate which should by all means never be used in exchange for
ART
MUSIC
SCHOOL
MEDICINE
CONTRACEPTION
ANYTHING SPIRITUAL.
list is endless...
Yet when that new record you want comes out! (oh I forgot we can get it for free on limewire or kazaa-if we own a computer) how did we get the computer did someone GIVE it to us?
how about that new book by the woman who channels the ascended master?
or an HTML for dummies book?
What is wrong also with someone valuing what they pay for? They've (in general) worked for the green paper-why not value it? A Western dilemma. The fact is that individuals expend enrgy and it transforms into green paper, work is work-anything that comes from the work a person has done should be valued...shouldn't it? that seems like a void of self respect to me.
Again interesting.
Read some of the other posts. It's the judgement of others who work hard, or barter and trade for the spiritual training they're getting that is curious to me. And yeah I have to laugh, not out of ignorance or make fun of or at the expense of another, but because I refuse to clench my teeth and scream about it (again a choice). At the end of the day at least somebody laughed and a good conversation was had, yes?
~Coyote in action.
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Re: more thinking on the selling of ceremonies
Fri, March 3, 2006 - 9:05 AMamen brother! money = energy
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Re: more thinking on the selling of ceremonies
Mon, March 20, 2006 - 7:01 PMWhat about those who cannot afford to pay with such money? And how they may get swept to the side when one with greenbacks competes for a place with y'all? Are safeguards put into place to avoid this kind of situation? People i sometimes hang with use the "no one turned away for lack of money"-type way. What do you think?
For myself, i've got to add that i avoided the Men's Movement simply because of the huge (for me) fees they were charging to participate. So i missed that entire network potential because of these "exorbitant" fees---expensive for me, yet "nothing" for the average exec. What is going on in this situation when such is allowed to happen and no one appears to think about this? (i assume that many natives believe that speaking to 'middle management' and 'upper management' types is "more constructive" than trying to bridge with the "low end" of the economically "challenged" (i for one am a 'drop out' from the entire cult ure).
What about the value system that is not questioned when *the only way* we think of for payment is via dollars? Those who see the problems of 'capitalism' say that to escape the monetary system (and imagination) is to escape a major hurdle (if not "the" major hurdle) that oppression has created. Why do you/others think that they are so strong about this?
How about that one must play within "the rules" in order to first "make money" and second, to fill out all the "necessary" forms?
}} What is wrong also with someone valuing what they pay for? They've (in general) worked for the green paper-why not value it?
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Some have said that paying in money is not as valued as, say, paying with physical labor, or paying with very special objects one has found in their life adventures. I mean, for instance, the average "normal" comparitively "rich" person can come and pay for your ceremony and such is nothing to them. Does it turn, then, into another spectacle to merely consume *when* participants do not truly escape from the imagination that dominates them?
i'm not seeking to promote a hierarchy of morality here, just that we think through the ways we take on. Are we thinking these things through adequately in relation to the imaginations we're sharing and their long history of being forcefully dominated by these value systems we think nothing of replicating today? So i wonder about this in this context.
Thank you for going this far with this, anyway. i see you are at least wearing the ideas and immersing yourselves!
}} The fact is that individuals expend enrgy and it transforms into green paper, work is work-anything that comes from the work a person has done should be valued...shouldn't it? that seems like a void of self respect to me.
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curious way to re-arrange the idea of respect....i'll pass this concept on to others who'd like to think about this more...and see what i can bring back to you.
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Re: more thinking on the selling of ceremonies
Mon, April 17, 2006 - 9:24 PMFor me the issue is choosing freedom or choosing drama
Freedom is worth any price
Drama is always about the barter
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My experience in the buying and selling of ceremonies
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 4:17 PMI thought the topic of "selling ceremonies" was interesting. I studied with Miguel Ruiz a number of years and ended up "buying" a lot of ceremonies. It was more than worth it. I was unhappy in my life and living chaotic drama in my relationships. He had what I wanted, happiness and peace.
I wrestled with the dilemma at times, but came to conclude that if a student really wants what the teacher is offerering, then some money is a small price. Even all their money is a small price for a life of happiness. If a seeker wants their money more than they want the teachings, then perhaps the necessary level of desire isn't there. I've found that people who aren't willing to let go of their money, aren't likely to let go of their drama and suffering either.
Having money as a barrier to entry helps the teacher sort out which of the students are serious and worth the teachers time.
If a teacher is clean, money won't corrupt them.
If a teacher isn't clear, then giving it away free won't won't help either.
Gary
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Re: My experience in the buying and selling of ceremonies
Thu, May 11, 2006 - 3:56 PMdevil's advocate here:
what about folks who are struggling to get by, feed the kids, pay the rent with no money left over? that's where i get tripped up. there's something in here about priveledge that is not being looked at. not everyone can afford to fly to teotihuacan or to pay for an apprenticeship. much of this stuff is only available to people who have money. enlightment, it's not just for rich kids anymore! ... or is it?
--said by someone who has gladly paid for ceremony but questions money always being a "small price". -
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stormaldo, yes...and
Thu, May 11, 2006 - 10:46 PMWhile i agree with you stormaldo, i also want to point out the whole value system that we are seemingly taking for granted. Some of us opt out entirely from the struggle to make ends meet (when we can). We don't WANT to feel forced to attend our wage slavery more than just enough to get by. To be around a bunch of folks who cannot see beyond the paradigm in which surrounds them (and of course, most of us, including i, have at least at some time been duped by), well, i think they are missing something truly deep.
Humanity's being free is more than "freedom isn't free" (a popularized phrase theez daze). To reduce our humanity down to the exchange of one way of being has a way of reflecting that reduction. We "learn" something, yet i think many who take this dominant paradigm for granted *consume* the learning more than actually bring it to heart.
i mean, this going through a learning experience by paying money is not like people who SURVIVE together on a life-threatening voyage. There just isn't that depth.
i am just seeking to advocate other imaginations beyond the monetary hierarchy and all the values that come along with that (i.e. if ya ain't "successful" in the capitalist scheme, ya don't deserve this kinda depth). It's one thing to give something that represents our hard work, and completely something different to make a lifelong friend out of someone who has gifts to share. --Or something like that. i'd rather invite such elders to come and stay with me at one of my camps whenever she/he is coming through, than to merely "pay" with dough.
And i think the imagination works two ways. It also, i think, poisons those who "pay"; because maybe now they believe that they've "done their part" and that's all they "owe". Hmm, whattya thinc? -
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Re: stormaldo, yes...and
Thu, May 11, 2006 - 11:53 PMi think oh so many things caRLos... being in groups of people who paid for classes, who paid to be near don Miguel just to experience being near someone who has busted through so much of the paradigm... some i've seen really walking the walk and taking things into their communities. not necessarily the teachings (although sometimes that is the case), but themselves and their servitude. others i see as 'groupies' and spirit junkies still trying to find joy and end their own suffering, but losing touch with the outside world. i have been 'guilty' of the latter and strive toward the former.
the thing that does tend to get lost in a lot of this is community. where do personal freedom and community service intersect?
for some, paying for ceremony is the only way they're going to get it initially. we are domesticated to believe that if it's free, it probably ain't worth shit and it ain't worth working for. everyone deserves to feel a sense of connection. quite possibly most everyone longs for it. it's going to come in different ways for everyone. for some it will be in the form of a paid student/teacher relationship (and hopefully go beyond that--but it's a start--imagine if george bush had the opportunity to look deep into a stranger's eyes and say "i love you"), for many, many others it might be sharing a struggle and fighting together.
i'm kind of all over the place here, but there are some of my (not very linear) thoughts.
peace. -
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I hear the problems but I don't hear the solutions.
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 11:08 AMI hear the problem but I don’t hear the solution. There is no spirituality for the poor. With people of wisdom charging money for their teachings, what is a poor person to do? Should spiritual teachings only be for the affluent?
First I tend to think there is something to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. A person who has an immediate need to feed himself isn’t that focused on nourishing their soul. Their stomach comes first.
If someone’s means are limited there are still many opportunities.
There are many churches that people can attend for free, or just a donation. These are wonderful places to gain insight. Unity churches and Church of Religious Science often have their classes on a donation basis. Some of those classes are even in the Four Agreements.
Libraries are open. It is free to check out one of don Miguel’s books, or Eckhart Tolle’s “The Power of Now.” They have many exercises and practices that a person can take action on for their own transformation.
A person still has to get themselves there. They will have to spend the money on gas, bus fare, or the time walking to get to these places, but they are open and available.
I don’t think availability is the problem. If someone really wants something more meaningful, or more spiritual, they will take the action and go looking. At first glance it may appear that there is a class system, but if the desire is strong enough, then people will find a way. You don’t need money to obtain personal freedom; the Buddha did it with just a tree. What is really needed is enough desire for a person to take enough action.
It is my experience that a skilled guide can save a great deal of time. It is easier when you have someone walking there with you, but it is not necessary to have them all the time. If the instruction is good, most of the time you just need to check in with them and monitor your progress.
I set up my online course with this in mind. People get the assignments via the internet, and join conference calls for questions. It still costs money, but it comes out to less than a dollar a day. If they have access to a computer and have internet service, they might be able to afford a coaching series that costs a dollar a day. This is a lot less than paying someone for their personal time or a workshop. I kind of figured that if someone can not afford a dollar a day, then they are probably focused more on feeding their stomach than their soul.
If there is a better way to nourish people’s soul give me a solution. I’m open to ideas of things that can be done to solve the problems. For now my website http://www.PathwayToHappiness is the best that I could come up with.
It doesn’t help to brilliantly articulate the problem. It helps to have your mind working on solutions.
Gary
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Re: I hear the problems but I don't hear the solutions.
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 12:17 PMThis is great!
From one 'advertisement to another!
I do believe we've come full circle!
Also an individual's distress at not having access to a community in which to aid in 'the practice' of the 4 agreements.
see original instigation of this thread here:
sanfrancisco.tribe.net/recomm...b968e92
To me they are related.
Also an individual's distress at not having access to a community in which to aid in 'the practice' of the 4 agreements.
technotoltec.tribe.net/thread...e661e55
With this type of circular thinking going on, perhaps there are no solutions.
again it seems that everyone has great insights.
It still comes down to what an individual wants to choose or doesn't want to choose for themselves, no matter what an outsider thinks. The thoughts and exchange of comments are great though, I often wonder how those tidbits of information are based in self-importance, or attempting to 'hook' another's attention, or attempting to 'prove that I am right' . There are so many other hidden agendas. You know, I'm talking from personal experience...my own agendas and needing to be right, wanting to isolate, or feeling that the 'world owes me' something, or lie to self and others.
Am I so ALIEN on this planet that no other human does these things!
Or is it that I am willing to call myself out that makes me ALIEN?
I don't know the answer to that for everyone else on the planet-that's not my business.
I do know that I am willing to help others in so far as they are willing to help themselves-i would expect no less for myself.
Love
Awareness
Integrity
Choice
gratitude.
'GOD'
...
Well the last time I checked these things don't cost anything.
They are free to anyone who wants them.
If I want to create a thing I go out and work to create it ( I cant speak to other's experience only my own )
I've also sat around and felt sorry for myself because I wanted something served up on a silver platter, only to blame my situation on 'privelege' or 'that i was less than human' or whatever. RED HERRINGS really. I just didn't have the energy or support to act. So I found them. community and with that the energy.
There is something to be said about 'action' thank you Gary for highlighting ACTION and CREATIVITY.
Thanks for all the insights.
Indigo signing out.
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how about...
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 6:21 PMLet's have a 4 Agreements camp at the Rainbow Gathering!
It's going to be in Colorado this year, apparently.
We wouldn't be the first specialized-type camp. There are all sorts of creative approaches to camps made there.
Check out the Rainbow Family here, or check out:
welcomehere.org
or
welcomehome.org
for more
info
(da rainbow gathering has been absolutely FREE for more than 30 years now, and includes kindly shared food kitchens, first aid stations, and everything else needed for so many folks!)
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Re: stormaldo, yes...and
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 6:16 PMHmmm, jus wanted to say to this:
**others i see as 'groupies' and spirit junkies still trying to find joy and end their own suffering, but losing touch with the outside world. i have been 'guilty' of the latter and strive toward the former.**
A question for you:
Why stay connected with the "outside world" at all if you don't absolutely have to? I mean, we all gotta go thru the hoops ( and their grip is increasing as steadily as ever...Trudell said some deep shit about that, but it ain't very comfy...). The therapist will be cross at you and tell you to be a nice chap and be "realistic" (simply reflecting their own experience with such confines, y'kno), but outside o all thoz kinds of authoritarianistically lost folks there's so much more (damnit!) (i'm currently in a crux of a situation, unsure of myself on the one hand, but damn sure i want places beyond The War).
But you sound like you think things through, so i'm s'prised to hear you apparently thinking ya gotta keep "touch" with the "world". Whassup wit dat? -
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Re: stormaldo, yes...and
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 9:19 AMi like the world. i like the people. i like the places. i'm here on earth and i'm not alone. i'm not only interested in meeting people who are obviously on the path to enlightenment. (although i believe we all are on that path--whether we know it or not)
i think we tend to forget that there is a world out there and that we are a part of it. if we're all one than why ignore or reject the parts of us that are still sleeping? ie the outside world...
sometimes it's as simple as --being human is fun! -
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Re: stormaldo, yes...and
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 2:37 PMSome of us need to have that choice, because this reflects the path we have walked and the shit we have been forced to deal with, so I think it's important to have that choice open and not get wheedled or stampeded (or what have you) to fit into something that others have no problems with.
That's all i'm calling for--choice! -
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Re: stormaldo, yes...and
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 8:08 AMi'll drink to that. yaaaaay choice!
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